Talk:Ll

• In Albanian, the position is the reverse of Spanish, with an Albanian written Ll having a standard /l/ sound, while an Albanian written L is liquid.

I'm do not know what this is trying to say. Both the /l/ and /ʎ/ sounds are liquids. — Ливай | ☺ 20:39, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Wouldn't that be the sound of Portuguese "lh"? As in rolha (cork)...

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It was considered a single letter in Spanish orthography, and was collated after 'l' as a separate entry, but this is no longer done.

It still is a seperate letter in Spanish, isn't it?

As of 1994, neither "ch" nor "ll" are separate letters in the Spanish alphabet. —Scott5114↗ 21:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

They no longer affect collation in word lists, but they are still separate letters in that one correctly spells out chilla as che, i, elle, a. — Chameleon 07:00, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

IPA transcription

Is there an IPA-symbol or IPA-transcription for this elle? -DePiep (talk) 08:06, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Medieval Welsh LL

Has its own code in the Latin Extended Additional Unicode block. The capital appears to be an IL digraph; the miniscule appears to be an ll digraph connected by a line at the top.

No idea how to offer support for it, though. — LlywelynII 08:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC) The English Entry reads: "In English, ll represents the same sound as single l: /l/. The doubling is used to indicate that the preceding vowel is (historically) short, or for etymological reasons, in latinisms (coming from a gemination)."

This is just not true. The ll sound is the voiced velarized alveolar lateral approximant sound where the single l is the voiced alveolar lateral approximant sound. While these two different sounds are never contrasted to show a distinction in meaning and so are technically the same phoneme, they are so radically different that it would jar on a listener were they ever to be substituted for each other. Other phonemes sound a little difference depending on their position in a syllable but nothing like the extent of these two sounds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.93.84.93 (talk) 20:34, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

the liquid ll also occurs in languages from Ghana

The Ghanaian Akan group of languages, including Fante and "Twi", which is not pronounced "twee", but "[liquid-l]ee", incorporate this phoneme or a sound like it. It is pronounced something like "sh" and "wh" simultaneously, as in the (Anglicized) "main yay llay", meaning roughly "I'm not doing anything."Euonyman (talk) 16:49, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Contradiction?

Information regarding the use of [·] vs. [⋅] in the Catalan section of this article appears to contradict that given in the corresponding section of the article on the interpunct. ZFT (talk) 17:14, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

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Prounced like a 'j' by Puerto Ricans

Should be covered here. This article has the version that sounds like "sh" in sheep (/ʃ/) and "si" in vision (/ʒ/), and the more common "y" (/j/) pronunciation, but nothing to cover the "j" (/dʒ/) used by Puerto Ricans. For example "me llamo" ("my name is"), more commonly pronounced as "may yammo", is pronounced by Puerto Ricans as "may jammo". Obviously, I am not well enough versed in linguistics to contribute to the article, but I do know this is pretty standard for Puerto Rican Spanish speakers, especially in New York. Jyg (talk) 20:26, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Origin of Welsh ll

In other orthographies, LL is obviously derives from L.

• In some cases is a construction parallel to other twin letters, such as tt (German "Fett" and "Fell", twin consonants after short pronunciation of a vowel).
• In some cases is is the outcome of an assilimation, like "collateral(is)" from "con-lateral(is)", originally meaning "side-by-side". In Spanish, such assimilations created a new sound, a palatalized L, IPA [​ʎ​], derived from Latin CL (clavis -> Llave – key), FL (FLAMMA -> llama – flame) and PL (PLANUS -> llano – plane). Overseas, in Latin America, this sound has been modified.

In Welsh names, it is evident that the frequent "Llan…" and "Lland…" corresponds to Roman "San" and "Sant", derived from Latin "SANCTUS". That observation suggests that Welsh "ll" is the generically wrong graphical adaption of an ancient letter of another alphabet (in Ogham inscription I looked in vain.) consisting of two vertical lines, or at least of parallel lines.

• Such a generically wrong graphical adaption is known in German: There are surnames with "hs", drived from "ſs" (long S + short S). The cursive-script ſ looked like the kurrent-script h.

An appropriate origin could be the Hebrew ש‎, though it consists of three parallel verticals. Another letter consisting of parallel lines, and even phonetically a bit similar to Welsh "ll" is the Greek Ξ. --Ulamm (talk) 13:41, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

I asked this question also to a professor of Celtic languages in Germany: The "Llan…" is no "San". It is rather related to the French word "lande" = heath. It marked – differently from "lande" – cultivated (an therefore woodless) areas.--Ulamm (talk) 22:22, 19 May 2022 (UTC)